My Conversation with a Mystic
By Sr. Cherubimaris Casino
Because of the complexity of St. John of
the Cross’ writings, I thought it would be a great idea to speak with him
personally and share this information with our Church History class.
Providentially, he agreed to speak with me despite his busy schedule of
constant intercessory prayer.
Sister (Me): On behalf of the Roman Catholic Church, I
would like to thank you Padre St. John, for taking the time out of eternity to
speak with me today about your book Living
Flame of Love that has touched the hearts of millions for centuries!
St. John of the Cross: Thank you, Dear Sister. It is with great
beatitude that I have come to share my spiritual journey. It is humbling to
speak from Heaven. We are all “crumbs that have fallen from God’s table”[1]
for we are an overflow of God’s bounty.
Sister: Beautiful! I’m in fact overflowing with
joy to hear what you have to say. Before we begin talking about your works, would
you kindly share about your background?
St. John of the Cross: My father Gonzalo came from a wealthy
family of cloth merchants. He fell in love with my mother Catalina, who was a
weaver from a poor family. Due to the conventions of the time, my father was
disinherited from his family after marrying my mother who was poor. He died
when I was just a little boy, and the family was left impoverished. All these
events as a child formed my heart for the priesthood that was to come.
Sister: Goodness. Those are certainly some hard
beginnings for a child. Could you describe what was happening in the world at
that time?
St. John of the Cross: I was born in the province of Avila
during the Siglo de Oro, the Golden
Age of Spain when the Spanish empire was expanding dynamically across the
globe.[2]
Christopher Columbus had just discovered America about fifty years earlier and
the Spanish period of colonization began in 1492.
Sister: How exciting! How did this affect you and how was the
Church affected?
St. John of the Cross: King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella tried
to unite their kingdoms into a Christian kingdom, and sadly expelled or forced
Spanish Jews to convert. But it was certainly a time of religious renewal and
spiritual fervor.[3]
There was an emphasis on returning to the spirit of the founders,
contemplation, and poverty. As for my family, we remained poor as the country
grew in wealth, since most of their money went to supporting wars. Yet in God’s
providence, I was able to study at a school for orphans and poor children and
had many holy mentors along the way.
Sister: Speaking of mentors, it’s no secret that
you were good friends with St. Teresa of Avila and helped her greatly in the
reformation of the Carmelite order, including the spread of mysticism in sixteenth
century Europe. How would you say that your works compare to hers? Are they
different at all or are you essentially saying the same thing?
St. John of the Cross: During the time that St. Teresa became
prioress of the order, she received the gift of spiritual marriage, the highest
level of union with God.[4]
So she experienced the Dark Night and the Living Flame. In essence, the
spirituality is the same but the terms are different. For example, I call the
first stage of purgation “active night of the senses.” She calls it the “first
and second mansions” of the interior castle. I call the second stage the
“active night of the spirit,” while she proceeds with the “second and third
mansions.” When we get to the beginning of the illuminative way, we come to the
“passive night of the senses.” This is when God purifies the soul directly, and
the transition between the third and fourth mansions.[5]
Sister: After reading Living Flame of Love, I’ve been inspired to reach the unitive way.
Would you kindly give me some advice as to what I can do?
St. John of the Cross: (Laughs) Well, my beloved daughter, it’s
not what you can do but what God can do in you. It is God who purifies and
raises you to Himself. The question is, if you are receptive to His grace.
Sister: Ahh…I see.
St. John of the Cross: That is why the passive night is
“passive,” for it is God who carries you at that point.
Sister: Wow! Is that why St. Therese of Lisieux
described her way to Heaven as an elevator in Story of a Soul?
St. John of the Cross: Yes, St. Therese ascended to God the
Father in the Carmelite spirituality, simply through her “Little Way.”
Sister: Would you briefly summarize The Ascent of Mt. Carmel for those who are not familiar with it?
St. John of the Cross: Mount Carmel is the place where the soul
encounters God. It is where the great saints have learned their spirituality
from Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, who is the school of love. In the ascent to
perfection, a soul undergoes four divisions of purgation to be emptied of itself
that it may be completely filled with God. The first two stages are the active
night of the senses and the active night of the spirit, with more weight and
effort placed on our part. The next two stages, the passive night of the senses
and the passive night of the spirit are accomplished directly by God.[6]
Sister: In the first stanza, you address God as the “living flame
of love” which burns in the soul’s deepest center. Is this presence of God
already dwelling within, or must we go find it? How would you discuss this
nature of union with God?
St. John of the Cross: “To understand the nature of this
union, one should first know that God sustains every soul and dwells in it
substantially, even though it may be that of the greatest sinner in the world.
This union between God and creatures always exists.”[7]
Sister: How then would you describe the
transformative union in one word?
St. John of the Cross: LOVE!
Sister: Amen! That makes so much sense. Now, I have a few questions
about your poem Living Flame of Love.
What does the image of the log and flame represent?
St. John of the Cross: The log is now completely transformed into the
fire and shoots its flames out of intense love for God. This is the soul in
transforming union, a perfect union of the soul with God.
Sister: Why do you think so very few souls reach this stage?
St. John of the Cross: They simply do not want it bad enough. Once
those souls experience great tribulation and trial, they become frustrated or
discouraged, and turn to their old ways. It is also out of fear. Often, people
become afraid of surrendering everything to God because they are afraid that
His Will entails a cross too heavy for them to carry.
Sister: How can we motivate people to become detached from self-will
and self-love?
St. John of the Cross: They must know that “in the twilight of life,
God will not judge us on our earthly possessions and human success, but rather
on how much we have loved.”[8]
Sister: Love seems to be everything in all and
for all. I’m very interested to know
what the soul looks like in divine union. You describe it as a single “living
flame of love.”
St. John of the Cross: The soul feels completely inflamed in
the divine union, “its palate is all bathed in glory and love, flooded with no
less than rivers of glory, abounding in delights, and from its depths flow
rivers of living water.”[9]
Sister: It sounds like this soul is swimming in the heights of
heaven! Does the soul consciously know that it is in such a state?
St. John of the Cross: The state of the soul is hidden to the
person, but at that point, there is no longer self to the self, but God.
Sister: In the same stanza, you mention that acts of love are more
precious and meritorious than “all the deeds a person may have performed in the
whole of life without this transformation, however great they may have been.”[10]
Does this mean that one act from a transformed soul is much greater than
several acts one by many good souls?
St. John of the Cross: Yes! For this reason, the Blessed
Virgin Mary simply cooking a meal for the Child Jesus was worth more than all
the acts of martyrdom in the Church.[11]
Her love was perfect. In this state the soul does not make acts of its own
because the Holy Spirit makes them all. All the acts of the soul are divine. It
is like the difference between the wood on fire and the flame leaping from it
since the flame is the effect of the fire.[12]
Sister: Wow! So what really matters is not even the magnitude of a
work or the suffering, just the love?
St. John of the Cross: The greater the love, the greater the
merits.
Sister: Hmm…Well then! That also explains how St.
Therese of Lisieux obtained great spiritual heights in the small tasks and
little struggles she had.
St. John of the Cross: Exactly.
Sister: Moving on to my next question: Why is it
that you begin the third stanza with a different image, “lamps of fire?”
St. John of the Cross: Lamps are the attributes of God, for God
is His attributes wrapped in knowledge and love. When the soul participates in
the light and heat of God’s attributes, the experience is so intense and
delight, all as one movement.[13]
Sister: That just gives me Goosebumps. That also
reminds me of my favorite line in the fourth stanza: “How gently and lovingly
You wake my heart.”[14]
What is the heart being awakened to? Is it the presence of God within it?
St. John of the Cross: Yes, this is the first effect of union –
the awakening. God was always there, hidden in the substance of the soul. Now
the soul awakens to His presence.
Sister: But does not the soul already know this intellectually?
What is the difference of knowing God’s presence now in the unitive state?
St. John of the Cross: The difference is that now, the soul
knows creatures in God. There is knowledge of God ‘a priori’ instead of ‘a
posteriori.’[15]
That is, instead of knowing God in creatures, the soul knows creatures in God
because God is the cause, and by knowing the cause, the soul knows the effects.
Sister: It seems that the whole person is
transformed, including the eyes through which it sees.
St. John of the Cross: Yes, for the soul is transformed by the
object of its love.
Sister: Oh no! It looks like we’re out of time!
St. John of the Cross: Contact me anytime, Sister. I have
eternity!
Sister: Thank you again, Father St. John, for
your spiritual wisdom and instrumentality in transforming the Church! After all
that I’ve read and heard, I can’t wait to go to the chapel to be with my Love!
[1] John of the Cross, trans. David Lewis, The Ascent of Mount Carmel (London: Thomas Baker, 1906), Book I, Chapter VI, at https://www.archive.org.
[2] Federico Ruiz, O.C.D., et al., God Speaks in the Night: The Life, Times,
and Teaching of St. John of the Cross (Washington D.C.: ICS Publications,
1991), 12.
[3] Mark O'Keefe, Love Awakened by Love, (Washington DC: ICS Publications, 2014), 15.
[4] O'Keefe, Love Awakened by Love, 19.
[5]
Thomas Nelson, lecture on Christian
Asceticism,
[6] Nelson, lecture (20 July 2019).
[7] John of the Cross, The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book II, Chapter V.
[8] Lawrence Cunningham,
“Who was St. John of the Cross?” at America: the Jesuit Review, at
https://americamagazine.org.
[9]
[10] John of the Cross, Living Flame of Love, Chapter 1.
[11] Nelson, lecture (20 July 2019).
[12] John of the Cross, Living Flame, Chapter 1.
[13] John of the Cross, Living Flame, Chapter 3.
[14] John of the Cross, Living Flame, Chapter 4.
[15] John of the Cross, Living Flame, Chapter 4.
